Tuesday, 3 June 2008

JB gets beated yet again

JB has now realised that ive smashed his argument and is acusing me of only focusing on trivial points. No JB, it that your points were all trivial.

Second, I'd like Mike to articulate what "special conditions" applied to the preservation of Yohanan's bones that would not have, within a non-resurrection framework, also have applied to Jesus' bones.
Maybe jebus' body was exposed to the air more, or there was a worm infestation in the tomb of jebus. i dunno, all i need to show is that it is possible that jebus body rotted away. Maybe we dont have jebus body because he didnt exist. Scholars like G A Wells thinks so. just use your imagination. Domonic crossan thinks dogs ate jebus body. there all kinds of options which dont resort to sky daddies

Third, Mike is obviously playing the 'idiot atheist' role at this point, because his assertion of no skeletons being found at Pompeii is patently false.

I meant the disciples found no skeletons there and your articles you linked to dont show that. And anyway, these are a rareity which is why it was mentioned in the magazines you linked to

Aside from the blatant falsity of Mike's claim that "only Christians take the Bible slightly seriously
emm no. no non-christian scholar doesnt recognise that the bible is full of errors, biased and was not written as history.

why the authorities never disconfirmed the Christian account
they did. Have the authoroties disconfirmed mormonism? Yes. Does that stop mormons? No. Obviously if the authorities had proven xianity to be false wouldnt the disciples have the same atitude mormons do. They would claim that the devil had put it there to test them or something.

on a much grander scale, and without recourse to a founding figure
consintine founded xianity. or maybe paul did

third, that the issues surrounding, e.g., the Book of Abraham are such that the rank-and-file Mormon is unaware of them
would your rank and file xian living in rome be aware of jebus body?

fourth, that Latter-day Saint apologists can offer some arguments on their behalf, no matter how ultimately devoid of significance
Maybe the diciples came up with arguments for the fact jebus was still in his tomb. Maybe the cremeated him.

and if you care to invoke his opinion, you'll have to provide the supporting argumentation as well.
ummmm - i did. I pointed out that there is no evidence that the first xians were persecuted.

also gained greatly from the power of their positions, and the founder went out fighting during his lynching.
my point, the founder of mormonism dided for their beliefs.

given that Mormonism is by its very nature an offshoot of Christianity
And xianity is an offshot from paganism

No, Mike. Substantiation for the alleged implication ("so people got bored and made up stories of [resurrected] friends for fun"). Hop to it.
Well when people are bored they do things to entertain themselves. So they decided to make a new religion.

That's not an ad hominem attack, Mike. You don't appear to know what that term means. And no, you don't get to use it unless you invoke it properly: introduce it, expound it, argue for it, and defend it from criticism.
You really should take a course in logic. Why dont you start here.

If you want to defend the usefulness of memetics, by all means do so. However, memetics does not "explain why people believed in the resurrection". You postulate no sufficient cause for the "Jesus-rose-from-the-dead meme", nor do you explain its spread.
Basically memes work like evolution. So each generation of xians comes up with variations of the reserection meme and the most successfuly version of the myth survives. I realise that it is a bit complicated and you preoberly dont understand meme theory byut many inteligent people think it is the best advancement in biology of the twentth century.

A picture of a relief, without any data as to its provenance, its date, etc., cannot be acceptable evidence.
In which case you cant use the bible asthat doesnt have a date written on it or a sign saying its provenance

Mike, if you really want to make solid arguments on this point, you'll need to back up your stance with literary evidence, not just artistic,
Unfortuantly the vatican have destroyed that kind of evidence. infact ive written a whole blog entry on this

How peculiar, then, that you haven't overturned a single one of my arguments
In your dreams. ive been running rings around you and shredding your arguments to bit. on the contrary, you havent overturned any of my arguments.








15 comments:

Anonymous said...

It's True! It's True!

JB got beated.

How can you fight logic like this:

"no non-christian scholar doesnt recognise that the bible is full of errors, biased and was not written as history."

Yeah it takes a while to figure out what he meant to say, but once you figure it out it is gold Jerry, gold.

It is just too easy!

So Saith the Velvet Evolver

JB said...

lol

http://mundaneenigma.blogspot.com/2008/06/fourth-response-to-mike-wright.html

Anonymous said...

Another gem:

"I realise that it is a bit complicated and you preoberly dont understand meme theory byut many inteligent people think it is the best advancement in biology of the twentth century."

I mean JB how can you deny the best advancement of the twentth century. Preoberly because you are a Xian and not one of the inteligent people.

Keep pounding them Mike.

So Saith the Velvet Evolver

Anonymous said...

thumbs up, Velvet Evolver.


Mike said:

Maybe jebus' body was exposed to the air more, or there was a worm infestation in the tomb of jebus. i dunno, all i need to show is that it is possible that jebus body rotted away. Maybe we dont have jebus body because he didnt exist. Scholars like G A Wells thinks so. just use your imagination. Domonic crossan thinks dogs ate jebus body. there all kinds of options which dont resort to sky daddies


Mike, do you even have a clue what you are saying?

Do you really think that Christians have not thought of the possibility that there were no body, or that it was stolen, or that it was eaten, or burned??

But the problem you have, Mike, is that none of these account for any of the evidence.

And if your next question is, "what evidence?", then you havent been paying attention.

Mike said:
You really should take a course in logic.


If your posts are any evidence, you sure haven't.


johnny taco

the blob said...

I think the Christians here are reluctant to explain to us the difference between Harry Potter, the Book or Mormon and the Bible. The problem is that the more we disprove their faith the stronger their faith becomes.

There's a scholar called Bart Ehrman who was a Christian but actually decided to think for himself and look at the evidence. Not surprisingly he's an atheist now. Indeed they say the fastest way to make a Christian loose their faith is to make them do biblical scholarship. If a historian was reading JB's part of this debate they would be horrified - no historian says that the Bible has even an drop of credibility about it. Now I'm not saying that the Christians here are lying but in this day and age when every home has the Internet and The God Delusion can be bought at most book shops they have to be partly to blame for their ignorance.

Anonymous said...

Hi the_blob,


I'm curious about a few things you said ...hold on, let me quote you...

I think the Christians here are reluctant to explain to us the difference between Harry Potter, the Book or Mormon and the Bible.

Are there very many people claiming Harry Potter to be fact?

If not, then your line of equating Harry Potter to the Bible is starting yourself down a misguided path.

I don't know much about the Mormons, so i'll save that for someone else.

But i'm curious about some other things you said, for instance...

The problem is that the more we disprove their faith the stronger their faith becomes.

This is the first i've seen you say anything, the_blob, so what is this "we" you speak of?

No matter... rather, what i am more curious about is, what has been said in Mike's blog, that has you so certain that Mike, Fifi or Steven has said anything remotely resembling a proof against the Christian faith?

Or, for that matter, that my Faith has gotten stronger (or weaker) as a result of anything any atheist has said... i mean, the_blob, where did your insight into my Faith come from regarding it's level.. and whether it has been effected by error filled ramblings of our three blind mice?



Oh, btw, one last questions..

You mention Dawkin's God Delusion and also Bart Ehrman.

Have you done much reading and study on the subjects? Have you studied their claims?

If all you have done is read their claims, why do you have so much confidence in THEIR work?

Also, you claim that Christians are to blame for their ignorance (re. use of the internet to "research" and getting a copy and reading The God Delusion, so i'm really, really curious how many Christian Scholars you have read... or is your own ignorance also the blame of the Christians?
How much of the Bible have you read, since you PARROT the cannard... ummm, your words were, "Indeed they say the fastest way to make a Christian loose their faith is to make them do biblical scholarship.".

Have a good night the_blob,

God Bless,
johnny taco.

Anonymous said...

Mike, as i read todays posts by both you and JB, i noticed something in JB's post that i would really love to hear and answer from you...

You had claimed that, since the ancients did not have Wii and whatnot, they got bored and made up stories.

JB asked you to prove it.

Now, i'm pretty sure that JB meant the you need to prove that they made up stories (and that the Biblical Narative is, indeed, one of these), but what i would like to hear you do, is prove that they actually got bored... ever.

I'm not saying that they did or did not, but i think your blunder here is more than monumental....

Here's why:

Many at Tweb think you are a parody. JB has said that he thinks you are a parody, and he is taking the time to use you as an exercise bag.

But the thing is, Mike, that all these rants of yours, if they are rants of a bored person, should be treated as if they are the invention of a bored person.

In other words, not only should we Christians ignore your rants, but you have also ruined your credibilty amongst your atheist blog readers, because you, in effect, lied to them also.

There are only two ways for you to save face,
1) prove that the (human) Biblical authors were bored, and that the Bible is a creation from that boredom.
2) admit to being a parody

good night and God Bless,
johnny taco

FiFi said...

My God, you Xians really have a twisted, f'd up view of the world.

Taco Boy, Mike need do nothing but keep going as he has been to 'save face'. He has no need to 'save face' as you point out. I understand the point he's trying to make, even if he's not always the most eloquent at making it. It doesn't make him stupid or a liar.

I can see some really twisted attempts here on your part to try to divide and conquer, and might I say you're a sneaky little sh*t for even trying it.

I thought you people were supposed to be full of the love of the holy spirit and all that. You really are a piece of work.

Actual real proper historians do concur on the point that the Bible has absolutely not a jot of evidence that it is either historically accurate or truthful. At best its a collection of folk stories from the time (as we all know its supposed to span several thousand years, but there's nothing to even say how long a period its supposed to cover, hence the argument -which even Xians can't agree on - on how old the Earth is).

Parts of the bible are used in other religions too - some Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet; Hindus believe Jesus was an incarnation of the god Vishnu and is depicted as blue in their pictures of him on the cross. This doesn't make these religions any more true than Xianity.

Taco boy goes on to spout:
"Do you really think that Christians have not thought of the possibility that there were no body, or that it was stolen, or that it was eaten, or burned??"

Me: I think you've thought of it and tried very, very hard to discourage anybody else from thinking of it too.

"But the problem you have, Mike, is that none of these account for any of the evidence.

And if your next question is, "what evidence?", then you havent been paying attention."

Me: ..zzz Sorry! Dozed off there for a minute. What evidence, Taco Boy?

Fact is, there is no evidence whatsoever for any of what you Xians claim. I can provide plenty of evidence in terms of my knowledge of reality. Notice that I don't say 'belief' because I was educated in science and have touched and felt the evidence that, well, where do you start? Nature has evolved the way it has, yada, yada, yada, I've said all this before!

Tell me this Johnny Taco, have you ever had a science lesson?

And don't trot out the 'scientists are Xians too' rubbish, because quite frankly, they're not. I know lots of scientific minds, and they're really, really not Xians.

Laters Mike et al,

FiFi

FiFi said...

By the way, the Bible doesn't count as evidence of any kind, before you even start.

Spacefoetus said...

Good times

Anonymous said...

Xians thou art Loosed!

You loose debate.

An in the words of REM:

"Loosing My Religion"

With the internet and the God Delution you have no excuse not to loose your religion.

Although the Blob brings up:

"The problem is that the more we disprove their faith the stronger their faith becomes."

How are we to help you guys if all our help just makes you more faithful?

Maybe we inteligent free thinkers need to prove you silly xians faith and then you will loose your faith.

It is a conundrum for the free thinking world.

I mean all we want to do is to get you to loose your faith.

I am thinking now instead of my blog be the Velvet Evolver changing it to Christian, Loose your faith now ask me how.

Catchy I know. That is because I am an inteligent free thinker.

So Saith the Velvet Evolver

Mike is Wright said...

Now, i'm pretty sure that JB meant the you need to prove that they made up stories
i only need to show that they might have. if the evidence can be explained naturalistically then jebus didnt rise from the dead.

Anonymous said...

Ok Fifi, let's take a look at what you've said...

My God, you Xians really have a twisted, f'd up view of the world.

More claims, but no proof.

Taco Boy, Mike need do nothing but keep going as he has been to 'save face'. He has no need to 'save face' as you point out. I understand the point he's trying to make, even if he's not always the most eloquent at making it. It doesn't make him stupid or a liar.

I know the points he's trying to make too, but neither what he is trying, nor what he is actually saying, helps out his case.

I can see some really twisted attempts here on your part to try to divide and conquer, and might I say you're a sneaky little sh*t for even trying it.

Actually, no "divide and conquer" was attempted. If you read my comment to Mike, as if you found a secret document from me to Mike, you would get the gist. My statement, although not hidden from anyone else reading, was writen to Mike in regard to his comments and JB's comments.

Same same, my comments to you. And, also my comments to Steven and the_blob.

I do take into account things i've said in the past, both here and on Tweb (and elsewhere), mainly so i do not contradict myself... it's a way for me to be accountable to me.
If i attack you, or anyone else for lying, i try to hold myself to a higher standard first. Whether i succeed or not, is a welcomed topic, because this too, would help keep me honest.

That you think i'm a sneaky turd...
i'm sorry you think that way, and i will try to be more aware of my actions.

I thought you people were supposed to be full of the love of the holy spirit and all that. You really are a piece of work.

This is a very interesting comment, Fifi. First, if Christianity is incorrect/false.. what difference does it make?

But more importantly, why do you think that our actions are not that of love?
That we see that you are headed to Hell, and we are doing what we can to warn you... to redirect you... to open your eyes--- Now bare with me Fifi-- if Christianity were True/correct, do you think it would be an act of love, for us to sit back and let you go about your way, in the proverbial handbasket?

Actual real proper historians do concur on the point that the Bible has absolutely not a jot of evidence that it is either historically accurate or truthful.

That's a very bold claim, Fifi. I would like to see you back that up with some sources.

At best its a collection of folk stories from the time

Seems like your record is skipping.

(as we all know its supposed to span several thousand years, but there's nothing to even say how long a period its supposed to cover, hence the argument -which even Xians can't agree on - on how old the Earth is).

That we can't agree on the amount of time the Scriptures claim, is proof that the Bible is false??!!
All that really says is that there are many factors to consider.

Parts of the bible are used in other religions too - some Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet; Hindus believe Jesus was an incarnation of the god Vishnu and is depicted as blue in their pictures of him on the cross. This doesn't make these religions any more true than Xianity.

And your point?

I would agree that it DOES NOT make those religions MORE true than Christianity...

And, what you have presented, (i.e. that Muslims believe Jesus as a prophet, and of a Hindu belief) does not make any of them false, either... including Christianity.

Me: I think you've thought of it and tried very, very hard to discourage anybody else from thinking of it too.

No, actually i want you to THINK.

Me: ..zzz Sorry! Dozed off there for a minute. What evidence, Taco Boy?

for one, the arguments that you and Mike continue to dodge.... that Christianity should not have gotten off the ground.
That there is evidence for the Resurrection.

And, even though you don't want to deal with it, Scripture...
Yes, Fifi, the Bible is evidence.

Fact is, there is no evidence whatsoever for any of what you Xians claim.

close your eyes real hard and shove your fingers in your ears, and then yell, "lalalalala" at the top of your lungs, does not count as a response.

I can provide plenty of evidence in terms of my knowledge of reality.

ok, prove that you are not a figment of Mike's imagination.

Notice that I don't say 'belief' because I was educated in science

Incorrect... you believe that you were educated in science. You believe that you exist. You believe that the world outside of your mind exists, and that it corresponds sufficiently to the way it really is.

and have touched and felt the evidence that, well, where do you start? Nature has evolved the way it has, yada, yada, yada, I've said all this before!

Interesting.

Let's see...have you heard this one?:
Since we can not see Fifi's mind, and we can not touch Fifi's mind,
Nor smell or taste Fifi's mind,

Then we have no proof that Fifi has a mind.


Tell me this Johnny Taco, have you ever had a science lesson?

yes.

and notice that i do not ask you the same question.

But i will ask you, what have i've said, that disagrees with science?


And don't trot out the 'scientists are Xians too' rubbish, because quite frankly, they're not. I know lots of scientific minds, and they're really, really not Xians.

Care to name some, that you know personally, and who would agree publically with your claim?

FiFi said...
By the way, the Bible doesn't count as evidence of any kind, before you even start.


Because YOU say so??? LOL.


Good night Fifi.


johnny --- now it's 'taco boy'.... would you people make up your mind? LOL

God Bless.

Anonymous said...

Mike said:

i only need to show that they might have. if the evidence can be explained naturalistically then jebus didnt rise from the dead.


Mike, you need to account for all the evidence in an intertwined fashion.

Each one of your claims "fixes" one problem, but creates or highlights other problems.


I tell you, if you are a parody, you are of Wile E. Coyote, Super-Genius proportions.

lilpixieofterror said...

Hey there Fifi, when will you answer me? Oh, for your claim that scientist are not Christians... you are quite mistaken. In the past... there was Newton and Galileo (just to name a few). And today we have Stephen C. Meyer, Jonathan Wells, and Robin Collins who all call themselves Christians. If you want me to, I'll name others too. Keep trying fifi, you're attempts to wrap up your emotional reasons to become an atheist in rational reasons is telling.