Tuesday, 27 May 2008

Jebus said ask for anything......

Jebus said 'ask and it shall be given unto you' so if i were to ask that your skydaddy would make himself go out of existance would they?

21 comments:

lilpixieofterror said...

Do you even know what that means or do you just say the first words that comes to your mind without putting any thought into it?

Nick said...

No understanding of the context eh?

Really Mikey, do some real research before you make dumb remarks like this.

Mike is Wright said...

I did do some research - this came straight from the skeptics annotated bible

Nick said...

Right. That's research alright. Did you bother to read any commentaries on the passage?

Mike is Wright said...

the skeptics annotated bible is a commentary. Tell me, what's the difference between the skeptics annotated bible and the xian ones that try to iron out bible difficulties?

Mike is Wright said...

click here and go to point 10

Anonymous said...

or for that matter, did you happen to read the whole chapter to understand the context of the verse?.........

then read a few commentaries.

Here's a hint to get you started Mike:

Who was Jesus directly addressing?

and to give you a bigger hint, the answer is, people that believed He was talking.


Oh, and by the way... those videos on the right side of your blog page... two of them are FOR Christianity, and against your position.... were you aware of this?

Mike is Wright said...

Stupid google blogs were meant to only display intelligent videos and I apologise that their automatic video selection things picked up some dumb xian ones by mistake.

Why should i trust your interpretation over the skeptics annotatd bible?

Anonymous said...

mike said:

"click here and go to point 10"

Mike, could you tell me why you would trust a commentary without reading what is being commented about?


Let's say that i wrote a web page that gave comments about some of S. Hawkings works. Would you be prudent to accept what i (or anyone) had to say, regarding the work, or do you think it might be more wise to study Hawking's work first, then read my comments, and then decide for yourself if i'm in the ballpark.


From the comments you have made about the Bible and about God, it is evident that you are relying on other people's work.

You are relying on other people's mistakes and faulty reasoning.
You're hardly making your own mistakes... you're making second and third hand mistakes.
You would be better off playing chinese whispers.

Now, i thought you said that you are smart.
Let's see you use what you claim to have.
If you make your own mistakes, it will be a huge improvement (and will be able to be noticed and respected).

johnny

Anonymous said...

Don't trust ours.

Read the Bible for yourself.
The read a commentary... even the skeptics commentary, because if you understand what you've read, you will see the flaws in the SAB.
Then read a commentary on the other side of the fence, and compare that to what you've read for yourself.

At least then you would be honestly searching for the truth.

johnny

FiFi said...

Johnny, what about the flaws in the Bible? Of which there are many. Surely, the voice of God is perfect and wouldn't contradict itself?

Hmmmm.........

Anonymous said...

Hi fifi,

Yes, people keep mentioning flaws and contradictions, but of the ones i've looked at, most are resolved from reading the context (the surrounding text). Some are cleared up, when understanding of the culture or when considering the style of writing.

I haven't looked at each and every apparent discrepency, but i've seen quite a few.


If you would like to discuss some particular ones, go to www.theologyweb.com and pm me (pm means private message)... i am xtreem5150ahm... we can set up a thread, and we'll set parameters in the thread, so that you aren't "viciously attacked", like Mike might think he was (and like some have been in the past).

The main reason i'm suggesting Tweb is that this blog is Mike's.
But also in Tweb, other members are not afraid to point out when someone makes a mistake, regardless of who's "side" they are on.

johnny

Mike is Wright said...

Do we need to go into specifics in order to show that the bible is full of errors?

RC said...

Yes, Mike, a specific alleged error would be helpful. So why don't you or Fifi toss one out and let us have a go at it. I do not mind discussing individual alleged errors here on your blog Mike, however, if you would like to discuss alleged errors at another location so we do not hijack the blog with this discussion it is fine with me. You just let me know. You could start another post to discuss a specific alleged error on this blog if you like. Just let me know how you would like us to address the alleged errors.

RC said...

FIfi said:

"Johnny, what about the flaws in the Bible? Of which there are many. Surely, the voice of God is perfect and wouldn't contradict itself?

Hmmmm........."

Fifi why not state one of the alleged contradictions in the Bible so we can discuss it?

Anonymous said...

Mike said:

"Do we need to go into specifics in order to show that the bible is full of errors?"


Yes Mike, please do. However, i've noticed that when the Christian does the work of "debunking", the non-Christian complains that it's just word games or that the Christian will say anything to "protect" their belief.
So if you want to go this route, i would like to try a different approach, if you don't mind.
We'll look at the alledged problem together and ask each other questions. We'll let you pick the problem(s), and we can work through it together....
then you can't say that the Christians bluffed their way through... you can have an equal share... even more than equal.


It's your blog, so it's your call.

johnny

FiFi said...

Okay guys, try these two on for size. Don't ask me where in the comic you'll find it, but they are staple Christian beliefs. I used to be one, and they banded these about quite a lot.

1. God is all knowing and all powerful. This is an impossible state to be in, because if he knows what is going to happen in the future, then no matter how hard you pray he's powerless to change it. And where does human free-will come into this?

2. Using the comic again to calculate, you guys reckon that the Earth is 6,000 - 8,000 years old (depending on who you're talking to). However, we know through scientific study (Science, by the way, is the study of reality. Something which appears to be alien to Christians) that the Earth is several billion years old. Humans have been on the Earth for a mere blink of an eye. How do you stand up your book against the evidence? And don't tell me to just believe because I'm not that gullible.

Please, do discuss.

No offence you guys, but I'll stay away from your turf on this. I'm sure Mike's enjoying the show!

Nick said...

Fifi: Okay guys, try these two on for size. Don't ask me where in the comic you'll find it, but they are staple Christian beliefs. I used to be one, and they banded these about quite a lot.

Me: Oh we won't ask. We know you're about as familiar with it as you are with the mating habits of sea slugs.

Fifi: 1. God is all knowing and all powerful. This is an impossible state to be in, because if he knows what is going to happen in the future, then no matter how hard you pray he's powerless to change it. And where does human free-will come into this?

Me: Actually, God acts eternally knowing what you will pray. You never picked up Aquinas and read him did you? He answered this nearly 800 years ago.

Fifi: 2. Using the comic again to calculate, you guys reckon that the Earth is 6,000 - 8,000 years old (depending on who you're talking to).

Me: Only YECs do that. I don't.

Fifi: However, we know through scientific study (Science, by the way, is the study of reality. Something which appears to be alien to Christians)

Me: Not so. Most branches of science were founded by Christians and even a non-Christian philosopher like Alfred Whitehead would have told you that science got its huge rise from Christianity.

Fifi: that the Earth is several billion years old.

Me: And I agree.

Fifi: Humans have been on the Earth for a mere blink of an eye. How do you stand up your book against the evidence? And don't tell me to just believe because I'm not that gullible.

Me: You do a proper understanding of what the word "Yom" means in Genesis 1 and 2. Consider that in Genesis 2:4, the word Yom is used to describe the whole period of creation.

Fifi: Please, do discuss.

Me: Nothing new here. Fifi. Do tell when you have a substantial argument. These are elementary school arguments.

Fifi: No offence you guys, but I'll stay away from your turf on this. I'm sure Mike's enjoying the show!

Me: Yes. If you're unable to succeed here, might as well not go where you're even less likely to succeed.

And yes, I'm enjoying the show. It's quite funny to see you two think you have something while the rest of us sit back and laugh.

RC said...

Fifi:

Let me first state that you seem to be mistaken regarding our, Christians, mental state toward this blog. I am not riled at all. If you had followed any of this blog's history you would know that it has been discussed whether TIZ is a parody of a fundie atheist blog. A lot of Christians find the arguments discussed here to be basic and easily refutable. In light of this fact many think that Mike is making light of aheists via this parody blog.

I tend to think you and Mike are genuine.

I am not upset that Mike has insulted Christians and the Triune God. It is not my loss. It is not God's loss. It is Mike's loss. I do, however, care for you and Mike so I am spending time trying to have an even-handed conversation with you.

I would like to address a couple of your comments:

Fifi said:

"Life is very rarely either one thing or another. For example, there are 3 version of any conversation - the memory of one person's side, the memory of the other person's side, and the actual conversation that happened. Very, very rarely are all 3 accounts the same."

You are a Christian Apologist and did not even know it.

A lot of the so-called contradictions in the Bible result from the recounting of an event by different people to different audiences for different reasons. Contradictions in the Bible can be adequately explained when studied properly.

Point 1:

I think Nick has addressed this adequately.

Point 2: Dating of the Earth

Firstly:

Science is a study of observable facts. Scientists have in fact misunderstood observable facts in the past. In many cases scientists have been proven wrong by later scientists. As well with increased technology scientists have been able to observe more facts which affects what they believe. Not all science is good science. You have hung your faith in man and his science. Man can err. I myself have erred.

Secondly:

You have failed to avail yourself of the fact that not all Christians believe in a young earth. There are OEC (Old Earth Creationists) and YEC (Young Earth Creationists). Where a Christian is on this issue is simply how a Christian interprets the Bible. The Bible is not wrong on this issue it is that some individuals have misinterpretted the Bible on this issue. At this point in my study I am humble enough to say I cannot definitively say where I stand regarding the age of the Earth.

One of the issues regarding the age of the Earth is whether the days of Genesis are literal days or eras.

When you spoke of contradictions I thought you were speaking of areas where the Bible seemingly directly contradicts Itself. I am still waiting for examples of this.

Nick please correct me if I am wrong in any area.

Mike and Fifi I pray that you will come to saving knowlege of the Triune God.

Anonymous said...

Hi fifi,

Nick and RC covered the bases pretty good for the sake of this blog. And, although i am YEC, i'm going to leave that alone, since the main points have been covered well enough-- at least until you respond again.

I would like to add to something that Nick covered but i think you would miss it...


You said,
"1. God is all knowing and all powerful. This is an impossible state to be in, because if he knows what is going to happen in the future, then no matter how hard you pray he's powerless to change it. And where does human free-will come into this?"


Free-will--- can you prove that YOU (or anyone) has it?
Especially, in light of natural origins and evolution, can you prove that you can choose to post here, or that you can choose to choose anything, with only biological determinism?

And I'll even spot you Benjamin Libet's experiments.


But yes, there are a few answers to how free will can fit into God's Omniscience and Omnipotence.

But the bottom line is that the little challenge you bring up, is not even a contradiction... the reason some people think it is, is because they are looking at the problem backwards. They are looking at the results, as if they are God.

I don't know what your reading skill is like, but if you are interested in the subject, pick up a copy of
God, Freedom and Evil by Alvin Plantinga.

Oh yeah, Aquinas... and Augustine covered a good answer back in the day too.



I would also like to pray along with RC for your's and Mike's Salvation.

God Bless,
johnny

lilpixieofterror said...

"God is all knowing and all powerful. This is an impossible state to be in, because if he knows what is going to happen in the future, then no matter how hard you pray he's powerless to change it. And where does human free-will come into this?"

What is the point of prayer?

"Using the comic again to calculate, you guys reckon that the Earth is 6,000 - 8,000 years old (depending on who you're talking to)."

Too bad that Genesis skips generations and that would mean the YEC position is built upon a faulty foundation, eh?