Thursday, 29 May 2008

A genuine difficulty

people want an example of a biblical difficulty then here we go - but be warned, it is certainly a difficulty.

The gospel of Matthew begins with a boring genealogy like that we are told to avoid in 1 Tim.1:4 ("Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies") and Tit.3:9 ("Avoid foolish questions and genealogies").

Oh, and welcome to my blog fifi - it's nice to know that some intelligent people visit here occasionally.

16 comments:

Anonymous said...

LOL, Mike...
you are such the hypocrite!!

You blame Christians for "blind faith", but you seem to be afraid to actually read the Bible and come to a conclusion on your own--
so instead, you took (copied) the very first thing on the list of:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/abs_list.html

and it's not even in the form of an argument.

Let me give you another hint:
You need to show why the genealogy in Matthew is of the kind that 1st Timothy and Titus are refering to.

Or do you think it is a Biblical difficulty that the Genealogy is boring?


Try again,
johnny

FiFi said...

Good to be here Mike, I'm having a whale of a time!

What I want to know is: why are we arguing about the bible anyway? Why are we trying to convince these no-brainers that this work of fiction they hold so much up to is a load of old rubbish?

Did none of you study actual proper science at school? Where did you find your god there? Cos you see the more you know about the way the world works in an actual way, the fewer places there are for god to hide in. Now I'm not claiming to have an in-depth knowledge of quantum physics, but I have a very good general knowledge of science in general across all of the disciplines, although a particular thing for Biology as I studied it for A Level.

So, I throw down the gauntlet in the opposite direction and ask you xians, honestly, how can you honestly believe that there's this big mythical being actually up there controlling us all like puppets?

Don't you know about natural selection, about cell biology, about neurotransmitters and all such things? To be fair its probably too complicated for you to grasp.

Now don't go thinking I'm avoiding your previous questions in the previous comments sections, its just that you tied yourself up in so many knots over it it got a bit ridiculous.

Religion used to have a place in society when nobody understood about the way the world really worked, through the sciences and studying facts. We used to all think the world was flat and the sun revolved around us. How come god never piped up and told us the truth about that?

Honestly guys, get real. You just look silly now.

Thanks for your prayers, cos even though they aren't doing anything as you think they are, at least it shows a kindness of heart, you mean well and all that.

Sorry, on to the point, faith is blind. By definition its belief without evidence or reason, so I don't see how you can argue otherwise really. It doesn't take much reading of the bible to realise what a waste of time it is. You should be studying science more, and not the kind they teach in Christian schools. That's not science, its theology. And although its an 'ology' it can't possibly be a science because there's no scientific fact whatsoever in the bible.

The bible in its current state was compiled many hundreds of years after Jesus (assuming he existed at all) died, and no author of any of the books of the bible ever met him.

I could go on but I'm getting bored banging my head against this brick wall.

However, I will be back.

Ta-ra Mike, have a good weekend :-)

FiFi

Chaotic Void said...

FIFI: Did none of you study actual proper science at school? Where did you find your god there? Cos you see the more you know about the way the world works in an actual way, the fewer places there are for god to hide in. Now I'm not claiming to have an in-depth knowledge of quantum physics, but I have a very good general knowledge of science in general across all of the disciplines, although a particular thing for Biology as I studied it for A Level.

CV: I took Computer Science; does that count as "Proper". And I don’t really agree with your “The more you know about the world, the less room there is for God” notion. Knowing more about the world doesn’t rule out the existence of God. Actually, in some cases, people want to know more about the World around them because they believe that there is a God.

FIFI:So, I throw down the gauntlet in the opposite direction and ask you xians, honestly, how can you honestly believe that there's this big mythical being actually up there controlling us all like puppets?

CV: You might want to brush up on your Theology. He doesn’t control us. I believe that he knows our outcomes, but that's a long ways away from controlling us.

FIFI: Don't you know about natural selection, about cell biology, about neurotransmitters and all such things? To be fair its probably too complicated for you to grasp.

CV: Exactly how does knowledge of those things rule out the existence of a God?

FIFI: Now don't go thinking I'm avoiding your previous questions in the previous comments sections, its just that you tied yourself up in so many knots over it it got a bit ridiculous.

CV: I’m pretty sure that you’re dodging. There were no knots in Nick's posts or my posts regarding that last one.

FIFI:Religion used to have a place in society when nobody understood about the way the world really worked, through the sciences and studying facts. We used to all think the world was flat and the sun revolved around us. How come god never piped up and told us the truth about that?

CV: Chronological Snobbery, anyone? Just because we’re the most advanced generation so far doesn’t make us the smartest. Pretty much any invention we have today are nothing more than variations and elaborations upon the things of old.
And I'd like to see some evidence that the Ancients believed such things...

FIFI: Sorry, on to the point, faith is blind. By definition its belief without evidence or reason, so I don't see how you can argue otherwise really. It doesn't take much reading of the bible to realise what a waste of time it is. You should be studying science more, and not the kind they teach in Christian schools. That's not science, its theology. And although its an 'ology' it can't possibly be a science because there's no scientific fact whatsoever in the bible.

CV: You might want to check up on your Greek, Fifi… And learn to never use English definitions to define Greek words. “Faith” in the Bible is translated from the Greek Word Pistis, meaning “Trust Based upon Prior Performance/Evidence.”
Oh, and your idol Dawkins should study up a bit more on Theology/Philosophy/History. Just because he’s a scientist doesn’t mean he’s a Theologian/Philosopher/Historian… And the Bible doesn't claim to be scientifically accurate, so your rant about Scientific facts in the Bible is moot.

FIFI: The bible in its current state was compiled many hundreds of years after Jesus (assuming he existed at all) died, and no author of any of the books of the bible ever met him.

CV: How is the alleged fact that none of the Authors met him have any bearing on whether or not what they say is true?

PS...
If you want a civil discussion, Try Theologyweb. Regardless of what Mike says, as long as you are respectful and follow the Rules [No blasphemy, no Argument by Weblink, no Copyright Violation, no sockpuppet accounts, etc], you can argue against Christianity all you want.

Mike is Wright said...

ignore anything that idiot chaotic void. Computer science is not a science even though it has the word science in the title - I can use a computer without doing a degree on how to. I also bet he did it at some xian university which teaches them a load of rubbish and gives them a degree at the end.

RC said...

Firstly I am with Johnny. What is your difficulty? Is it that it is a boring genealogy or is there something else? I think I know what your angle is, but I would rather see you state the perceived difficulty.

I can assure no actual difficulty exists and we will gladly show you your error.

The unfortunate situation here is that I am afraid that our conversation will not be a give in take one. I think that we will make valid points and you will respond with insults or not respond at all. I am not trying to be harsh, but I truly would like you to engage with us in the conversation.

Fifi: "What I want to know is: why are we arguing about the bible anyway?"

RC: This is a good question and I have often wondered why people who do not believe in God waste their time trying to deny His existence. It seems to me you only have a limited number of years left before you are dirt and worms so why not spend it in a more profitable way. I would enjoy your answer regarding that question.

Fifi: "Why are we trying to convince these no-brainers that this work of fiction they hold so much up to is a load of old rubbish?'

RC: You resort to insults. Who is riled here? I once heard it said that in an argument one raises his voice when he cannot make his point. Your insults are not constructive to the discussion and hurt your credibility.

Fifi: "Did none of you study actual proper science at school? Where did you find your god there? Cos you see the more you know about the way the world works in an actual way, the fewer places there are for god to hide in. Now I'm not claiming to have an in-depth knowledge of quantum physics, but I have a very good general knowledge of science in general across all of the disciplines, although a particular thing for Biology as I studied it for A Level."

RC: You readily admit that you have very good general knowledge, but that your knowledge is incomplete. At the point your knowledge becomes incomplete you are faithfully relying on someone else to tell you what to believe.

Do you believe in the Big Bang Theory?

If so what existed before the Big Bang occurred and what caused the Big Bang?

I posit you operating on more blind faith than Christians are regarding the origin of the universe.

Fifi: "So, I throw down the gauntlet in the opposite direction and ask you xians, honestly, how can you honestly believe that there's this big mythical being actually up there controlling us all like puppets?"

RC: Have you ever heard of Intelligent Design?

You want us to believe that disorder becomes orderly without any outside influences.

Does you room become cleaner without you or someone else cleaning it?

I realize your desire to be "world leader pretend."

I used to be my own "world leader pretend", but neither me nor you live in a vacuum. Stop behaving as you do and look into opposing viewpoints. Do not insult people with opposing viewpoints. Try to understand why they hold those views and you might learn something.

I come to this table partially to learn. You might teach me something and I you if you would open your mind and stop with the infantile insults.

As far as a puppeteer I believe this has been addressed in other areas and it is one of those questions you have failed to answer.


Fifi: "Don't you know about natural selection, about cell biology, about neurotransmitters and all such things? To be fair its probably too complicated for you to grasp."

RC: I would daresay each of the Christians here are familiar with the items you speak of. What you fail to realize is that they do not prove or disprove the existence of God. It has been argued that the complexity of the universe would dictate a creative designer. This goes back to your concept of order coming from chaos, accidentally. Again you insult us. It does not offend me at all that you behave like a child on a playground. It does sadden me though. The topic at hand is far too important to be cavalier.

We have two opposing worldviews clashing here.

Yours is one of a mortal man living to die and ours is of a man facing an eternity.

It is not anything to be scoffed at.

If you are right you really should not be wasting your brief life debating Christians.

If we are right then you need to wake up.

Fifi: "Now don't go thinking I'm avoiding your previous questions in the previous comments sections, its just that you tied yourself up in so many knots over it it got a bit ridiculous."

RC: Here you go again. You speak in generalizations. Why don't you make it easy for us and address the individual knots we have tied. It would be helpful to us if you would explain our individual inconsistencies. If you cannot identify the problems with our statements I and others will perceive that there are no problems and that you are in fact avoiding our previous questions.

Fifi: "Religion used to have a place in society when nobody understood about the way the world really worked, through the sciences and studying facts. We used to all think the world was flat and the sun revolved around us. How come god never piped up and told us the truth about that?"

RC: Do you realize science still has not figured out how the world really works? We understand more than we did scientifically in the past, but science has not solved the question of origin satisfactorily.

Fifi: “Honestly guys, get real. You just look silly now.”

RC: Again with the insults. Can you carry on a conversation without belittling who you are speaking too? It is not endearing you to us. You should give it some thought why you continually belittle us and we respond with kindness.

Fifi: “Thanks for your prayers, cos even though they aren't doing anything as you think they are, at least it shows a kindness of heart, you mean well and all that.”

RC: You are welcome. I am genuinely concerned about you two and your eternal welfare.

Fifi: “Sorry, on to the point, faith is blind. By definition its belief without evidence or reason, so I don't see how you can argue otherwise really. It doesn't take much reading of the bible to realise what a waste of time it is. You should be studying science more, and not the kind they teach in Christian schools. That's not science, its theology. And although its an 'ology' it can't possibly be a science because there's no scientific fact whatsoever in the bible.

The bible in its current state was compiled many hundreds of years after Jesus (assuming he existed at all) died, and no author of any of the books of the bible ever met him.”

RC: Christianity is not a blind faith.
There is evidence for the foundations of Christianity.
Archeology continues to prove the veracity of the Bible.
There is secular discussion of Jesus.
Your statement regarding the Bible is false and the burden of proof lies with you.


Fifi: I could go on but I'm getting bored banging my head against this brick wall.

RC: Again, why would you waste your time?

Fifi: However, I will be back.

Ta-ra Mike, have a good weekend :-)

Hope to see you soon.

RC: May God Bless you and Mike.

RC said...

Mike said:

"ignore anything that idiot chaotic void."

Make a point do not insult the gentleman.

"Computer science is not a science even though it has the word science in the title - I can use a computer without doing a degree on how to."

You can use a computer because people like him do the grunt work to make them accesible to you. A modicum of respect might be in order.

"I also bet he did it at some xian university which teaches them a load of rubbish and gives them a degree at the end."

Computer Science is the same at secular and Christian Universities.

Many of the finest universities were and are founded by theists.

That is one thing that confuses me.

Why are y'all so concerned about Christianity?

Why not the same animosity towards Muslim and Jewish believers?

I see you have moved on to another topic without dealing with the can of worms you have opened here.

What is the perceived difficulty you were trying to point out in your post?

Define the difficulty.

If you do not I will have to assume you are intellectually dishonest and I am wasting my time trying to engage you in a meaningful debate.

Mike is Wright said...

we have a case of a blatant contradiction - and just because anonymous somehow found out that I copied it from the skeptics annotated bible is neither here or there.

RC said...

State the blatant contradiction and we will deal with it.

If it is blatant it should be easy for you to state the contradiction.

Mike is Wright said...

well one bit of the bible says that we should use genealogies and another bit says we shouldnt

RC said...

Okay so we understand what you perceive the inconsistency to be. We will address it now.

I will probably not get to my reply today Mike, but I will post a reply sometime this weekend.

I apologize for the delay, but I want my response to be thorough.

Chaotic Void said...

By the By, Mikey...

I go to a Catholic High School. It's one of the best schools in the City. :P

lilpixieofterror said...

You do know that in that era, family history and geologies were very important, right?

Anonymous said...

Hi Mikey,

Anon here.... lol

I figured out that you copied from the list on the SAB because you posted the link earlier, and i'm not afraid of looking into opposing viewpoints.


And, btw, i see that you still think what you posted is a contradiction, but you have not shown why the genealogy in Matthew is the kind that 1st Timothy is refering too.

Here is a bigger hint....

go read 1st Timothy
and read Matthew.

You could also think about hitting up a history book, and finding out what genealogies meant to the Jewish culture in that time in history.

Yours anonymously,
johnny ;)

Anonymous said...

FIFI:So, I throw down the gauntlet in the opposite direction and ask you xians, honestly, how can you honestly believe that there's this big mythical being actually up there controlling us all like puppets?


hi fifi,


Gauntlet accepted.



mythical being?

controlling us?


johnny

FiFi said...

Okay, some points:

RC said:
"Why are y'all so concerned about Christianity?

Why not the same animosity towards Muslim and Jewish believers?"

Because there are no Jews or Muslims here arguing their case, so I'll not attack them without giving fair opportunity to respond.


Chaortic Void said:
"How is the alleged fact that none of the Authors met him have any bearing on whether or not what they say is true?"

Ahem... to have a reliable primary source of information? You lot obviously don't do any research or you'd know about primary and secondary sources. The bible has to be a tertiary source at best. And all the stories can be traced back to older religions, the stories seem to have all been nicked from other traditions!

But, as you all so kindly point out, it is a waste of everybody's time trying to prove or disprove the bible. You either believe it or you don't. I've not seen anything to convince me (since of course I realised the hypocrisy of Christianity some 10 or more years ago) of its validity. I just see it as a collection of stories about people who started up a religion. This still happens today - think David Koresh and Waco. Its the same way Jesus started out. Now you may think I'm insulting you here, its not meant to insult you but I'm drawing a genuine parallel as I see it.


Asa final point, Chaotic Void (again) said:
"I go to a Catholic High School. It's one of the best schools in the City. :P"

Bless, you're still at school. That explains so much!! I believed in god when I was your age. Once you get to know the real world, you'll see sense so sorry love I see no further purpose in debating with you on any of this because you will come round in time of your own accord.

Finally, I just want to say that I enjoy a very full life with lots of interests across the board and I only spend a very small amount of time debating here with you all. It is you who waste your lives - spending half of Sunday in church praying and singing to nothing.

These are no blind insults, they are my point of view. If they offend you then I suggest you're a bit too senstive about things. Maybe you're all at school? That would explain a lot.

So I'm now going to have a laugh at all the more recent posts, but I'm glad I came here to check responses, its been fun guys, so thanks :-)

Chaotic Void said...

Fifi the French Poodle:
Ahem... to have a reliable primary source of information? You lot obviously don't do any research or you'd know about primary and secondary sources. The bible has to be a tertiary source at best. And all the stories can be traced back to older religions, the stories seem to have all been nicked from other traditions!

Chaotic Void:
Care to provide Evidence for your assertion that the Bible is a Tertiary source, and that ALL of the stories in the Bible can be traced back to older religions? Or are you just doing what I think you're doing and exercising your fingers?

Fifi the French Poodle:
But, as you all so kindly point out, it is a waste of everybody's time trying to prove or disprove the bible. You either believe it or you don't. I've not seen anything to convince me (since of course I realised the hypocrisy of Christianity some 10 or more years ago) of its validity.

Chaotic Void:
But one must have reasons for holding said belief. If you believe that the Bible is a load of Crock, then you must have something to back that up.

And you only realized church hypocrisy 10 years ago? Where the Hell were you for the last 20 years of your life? [BTB, “Hypocrisy” is a very poor reason to leave Christianity]

Fifi the French Poodle:
Bless, you're still at school. That explains so much!! I believed in god when I was your age. Once you get to know the real world, you'll see sense so sorry love I see no further purpose in debating with you on any of this because you will come round in time of your own accord.

Chaotic Void:
FYI, I am fully aware of “The Real World.”
Another FYI, I’ve already left Christianity once for crappy reasons. After my faulty reasoning was pointed out, and now that my beliefs are better grounded, there really isn’t anything that can shake them, unless my emotions take control [And the people who know me personally will tell you that pigs will be flying before that happens]. For the Record, I’m also planning on becoming a minister.

You also refuse to debate with me because I am younger than you? M’ Lady, That gag is the oldest retreat message in the book. I’d have expected better from an alleged Free-Thinker.

Combine the agism with your point-dodging, and that’s more proof that Free-Thinker means “Free of Thinking.”