Saturday, 9 August 2008

There are no atheists in prison

Now xians say that they are more moral than atheists, but if that is so then how do they explain that there are only 0.002% of people in prison in the world who are atheists?

11 comments:

Anonymous said...

Hi Mike...

Let me ask you some questions about morals:

In your opinion, is murder moral?

How about cheating on your spouse?

Stealing?
Lying?


I'm guessing that you would say that they are immoral, or that you would say that they are immoral in most situations (as would most people.. theist and atheist alike).

My next question to you is, why are these things immoral at all?



I am not going to ask you if you have ever murdered, because there is no statute of limitations on that one, but have you ever lied, cheated or stolen anything?

I don't expect you to answer me, but if you have ever done any of those things, would that make you a moral person or an immoral person?



You only got questioned on 4 of the 10 Commandments, but i'll be honest with you, Mike, i shamefully have to admit that i've broken each of the 10 Commandments.

You mention prison, but according to the Bible, where do each one of us deserve to go, Mike?


In Christ's Saving Grace, may God Bless you Mike.

johnny

Sir-Think-A-Lot said...

Johnny has already hit on the objective morality issue.

But now on to your actual question:

-For starters atheists are a minority around the world to begin with, so its not surprising that any given group of peope is mostly theists.

-Secondly how many prisoners were athiests when they were arrested and then found their faith in prison?

-Finally there are countries round the world where one can be arrested for practicing religion, or at lest the 'wrong' religion.

MrFreeThinker said...

I think I read somewhere that atheists were 3.5 times more likely to go to prison than Christians.
I'm going to look for a source.

MrFreeThinker said...

Correction-It is Vox Day's Irrational Atheist that made the claim and the figure is 3.84 times more likely to go to jail than Christians.

FiFi said...

Okay okay okay, enough with this utter bunkum!

Johnny - have you intentionally killed? If you have you shouldn't be walking the streets. And if you have, you don't seem to be very bothered about it! If you haven't you've just lied, so there's one of the commandments you've broken. Have you cheated on your wife? She should kick you out. You're a t**t anyway.

Its not about immorality or morality for me. Its about doing to others what you would have done to yourself. So if you speak to me with disrespect, Chaotic Void, Lilpixieofterror, you're going to get it back. I wouldn't choose to speak to you in that way to start with but I give people back what they give me. What you believers might label 'an eye for an eye'. But in certain circumstances I am perfectly able to 'turn the other cheek', depending on who it is and what they mean to me.

To answer your questions Johnny, I've never murdered or cheated. Yes, I have lied for the greater good as I see it, and very rarely stolen anything, certainly not since getting past puberty when I got a greater sense of perspective, as we generally all do as we get older.

It is better not to judge others as you will never know the whole story of the situation, so as you lot would say 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone'. How many of you actually abide by that particular rule? From here it looks very much like none of you do. Now nobody's perfect and I acknowledge I can myself be judgemental, but on the whole I try not to be these days. I find it hard not to judge Christians as I know its a very blinkered way to look at the world, having been there myself when I was much younger.

On to the question (from a few posts back, sorry) of evolution and Darwinism. If any of you are resident in the UK, I suggest you watch the brilliant documentary on Channel 4 at the moment called The Genius of Darwin, presented by Richard Dawkins. Now I know his name automatically puts you on the back foot, but he really does speak more sense than anybody else on TV. If you're unlucky enough to live elsewhere in the world, I'm sure you can watch it online at Channel 4's website. Do yourself a favour and look it up. I could spout the evidence here, but you would no doubt demand I direct you towards evidence online. I'm afraid there's no substitute for a good sound education in these matters. By that I mean a good solid scientific education.

One of you (I forget which - you all look the same to me) said previously you're studying science - theological science. I find that amusing since science is the study of reality, of the wonder of nature, the natural world - whereas theology is not. Its about fantasy. The two cannot be mixed. When you understand the natural world in a scientific way there's nowhere for gods to hide in there. Unless he's the little force that makes mitosis and myosis happen, or he's the force that makes the tips of plants grow. Actually, no, because that's down to physical science, chemistry and biology. Nowhere in your precious Bible does it explain WHERE this god is. Unless he's everywhere in which case he cannot possibly be a sentient being.

Or, as Alan Partridge pointed out, "God is a gas." Hot air more like.

MrFreeThinker said...

In response to fifi
"Psalms 139:7-12" tells you where god is. He is everywhere.
And johnny was talking about objective morality to Mike.Do you accept an objective moral source fifi?
And from a christian perspective lusting after someone is as bad as adultery and hating someone is as bad as murder (read the sermon on the mount).This is probaly what Johnny meant when he said he broke all the commandments.
I do accept evolution ,fifi. I think that the "creationism movement" is the result of a kind of dogmatic interpretation of Genesis that would not have been supported by St Augustine or any of the church fathers.And even though evolution may explain the complexity of life adequately to me , the human person , morality and the universe in general all require an explaination for their existence.
You should see spacefoetus's debate with Mike.He does present some good reasons to think these things have their source in god.

Anonymous said...

Johnny - have you intentionally killed?

Jesus said that if we are angry without cause, we are in the same boat as if we killed and in danger of the same judgement. (Matt 5:21-22)

We are also told that if we stumble on even one point of the Law, we are guilty of all.


If you have you shouldn't be walking the streets. And if you have, you don't seem to be very bothered about it!

The same question to you as i asked to Mike:

My next question to you is, why are these things immoral at all?

You claim to not believe in God and the Bible... so where does your objective morality come from?
And if you think that morality is subjective, why does it matter to you, if i am walking the streets?


If you haven't you've just lied, so there's one of the commandments you've broken.

Wow!! what a revelation! Especially after i had already admitted to breaking all 10.

But you do bring up a good point, even if you did it by accident... Mike had claimed (and i'll quote)
Now xians say that they are more moral than atheists,

My post to Mike pointed out at least two things... morals are objective... and Christians do not (or at least, should not) claim to be more moral than anyone else.

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The only difference between Christians and anyone else, is that we acknowledge that we are Sinners in need of a Savior, and we are thankful that Jesus is the Savior that paid the penalty for our Sins.
And by the way, Jesus is who i've killed, intentionally. That He has risen declares His forgiveness.

Have you cheated on your wife?

Yes, my first wife.

She should kick you out.

Again, why? Please share where this is an absolute moral law within the atheist's worldview, that i've violated.


You're a t**t anyway.

i'm not sure what t**t is, but i'm imagining that you've insulted me in some way.... if i've been rude to you, please show me.. i would like to apologize.

Its not about immorality or morality for me. Its about doing to others what you would have done to yourself.

Call it what you want, but you are describing justice, based on what is moral or immoral in your mind.

This "do unto others.." that you speak of, is a moral that you are assuming all people would or should abide by. Not that i disagree with you on this, but it is a moral. Also, are you the only person in the world that always, 100 percent of the time, abides by this moral? Or have you fallen short?

So if you speak to me with disrespect, Chaotic Void, Lilpixieofterror, you're going to get it back. I wouldn't choose to speak to you in that way to start with but I give people back what they give me. What you believers might label 'an eye for an eye'. But in certain circumstances I am perfectly able to 'turn the other cheek', depending on who it is and what they mean to me.

I don't think i've spoken to you without respect... if i have, please point out.

To answer your questions Johnny, I've never murdered or cheated.

cool.
Back to the adultery Command. There are other ways of breaking that Command, besides cheating.
In the same vein as murder and hate, Jesus tells us that lust is also a violation of this Commandment.

Yes, I have lied for the greater good as I see it,

I'm glad you qualified it as, "as I see it", but where does this atheist 'greater good' reside?

and very rarely stolen anything, certainly not since getting past puberty when I got a greater sense of perspective, as we generally all do as we get older.

So, with this logic, all murderers should be let free to walk the streets, once they have gotten a "greater sense of perspective"?

According to the Bible, all things belong to God. If we steal, we have stolen from God. You may or may not have paid back the earthly steward of that which you stole, but did you pay the penalty for Sinning against God?

It is better not to judge others as you will never know the whole story of the situation, so as you lot would say 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone'. How many of you actually abide by that particular rule?

Why does it matter to an atheist if we Christians abide by God's Law or not?
However, it would seem that you agree with this command and that rule. What is it that guides you?
I mean, "nature, red in tooth and claw" and "survival of the fittest" and "morality is subjective" .... seems like the whole atheism worldview is a bunch of self-fish hogwash to me.

From here it looks very much like none of you do. Now nobody's perfect and I acknowledge I can myself be judgemental, but on the whole I try not to be these days.

But from the atheistic worldview, what does it really matter one way or the other.... that one deer ends up in the mouth of an aligator means the next deer gets to make it one more day.


I find it hard not to judge Christians as I know its a very blinkered way to look at the world, having been there myself when I was much younger.

Please describe what 'blinkered' is, and also what you feel is 'blinkered' about the Christian worldview.

On to the question (from a few posts back, sorry) of evolution and Darwinism. If any of you are resident in the UK, I suggest you watch the brilliant documentary on Channel 4 at the moment called The Genius of Darwin, presented by Richard Dawkins. Now I know his name automatically puts you on the back foot, but he really does speak more sense than anybody else on TV. If you're unlucky enough to live elsewhere in the world, I'm sure you can watch it online at Channel 4's website. Do yourself a favour and look it up. I could spout the evidence here, but you would no doubt demand I direct you towards evidence online. I'm afraid there's no substitute for a good sound education in these matters. By that I mean a good solid scientific education.

Thanks.
I hope you realise that just because one is Christian, does not mean that he is uninformed about science or evolution.

One of you (I forget which - you all look the same to me) said previously you're studying science - theological science.

I believe it was Pixie, however i don't think she said anything about "theological" science.
I could be wrong, but i'm pretty sure that you got two things mixed together.
She is studying science; She believes in theistic evolution.


I find that amusing since science is the study of reality, of the wonder of nature, the natural world - whereas theology is not. Its about fantasy.

Do you have a richie dawkins channel 4 show to back that claim up?

The two cannot be mixed. When you understand the natural world in a scientific way there's nowhere for gods to hide in there.

What an interesting claim.

Where did the natural laws come from?

Why is there something rather than nothing?

Why do you trust your mind when it is a product of blind evolution?


Unless he's the little force that makes mitosis and myosis happen, or he's the force that makes the tips of plants grow. Actually, no, because that's down to physical science, chemistry and biology. Nowhere in your precious Bible does it explain WHERE this god is. Unless he's everywhere in which case he cannot possibly be a sentient being.

Well, you just did my work for me. Thanks.
You just pointed out the doctrine that God is transcendent and immanent.

Or, as Alan Partridge pointed out, "God is a gas." Hot air more like.

I had to google who this Alan Partridge chap was....

You said of Dawkins, "but he really does speak more sense than anybody else on TV.".

I think Dawkins has little-to-no sense (when it comes to God, theology and philosophy... meh, and evolution ;) ).
So, since i hold Dawkins in such low regards, and you think he's the cat's meow, that would mean
Alan Partridge is the funny man with the hot air.

Until next time fifi...

johnny

Sir-Think-A-Lot said...

So nobody wants to talk about the subject of the post?

Also on a minor note I missed in my first post. The claim isnt so much that Christians are more moral than athiests, but that athiesm cannot provide an objective source of morality.

Ironicly when Mike Trite points out the 'immorality' of Christains, he reenforces the point that objective morals exist. Which begs the question of where those objective morals come from.

If morality is subjective, then the question "Are athiests or Christains more moral?" is about as meaningfull as the question "Is mincemeat or pumpkin pie tastier?"(even though everybody knows taht Pecan pie is the best)

Anonymous said...

Somewhere, but i'm not sure where, i recall a different figure sited. The figure i recall was 0.2%.

Is there a source to determine what the correct figure is?


johnny

Sir-Think-A-Lot said...

I'm sure that information is kept in government records. Though I doubt anybody has compiled it from the whole world.

Also another point I hadnt thought of before. How many prisoners are actually athiests who claim a religion in order to get special privlages?

Drow Ranger said...

This whole prison business is a red herring anyway. Yes Christians sin (and some commit crimes). Yes some go to jail. However, you will probably find that a great deal of prisoners who identify their religion as Christianity haven't seen the inside of a church since they were 13 years old or so. Ever hear of rebellion? And yet they cling to their background as an identifier as they go off the beaten path. There are actually some denominations that believe "once saved always saved" and thus whatever sins they commit, it doesn't matter. (this is incorrect, but eh, what are ya goona do?)

The issue is NOT who is more moral. That doesn't even enter the equation. The issue here rather is who is saved.

And the rest of the gang here is right: Atheists cannot have a rational basis for determining morality. Case in point: The animal kingdom. They say "Nature red in tooth and claw" for a REASON, you know.