Friday, 20 March 2009

How Jebus walked on water finally revealed

This video shows how magicians walk on water - it seems reasonable to assume that jebus used a similar technique



It just shows that theres a rational explanation behind everything

13 comments:

Anonymous said...

Mike, your last "rational" answer for this same account was the Sea was frozen over. It's still the same body of water (hint.. not a swimming pool).

Your "rational" answer begs huge questions.

I have a suggestion for you Mike...
Go interview a real magician, and ask him/her, whether the technique used here, would explain the Biblical account.

johnny

Sir-Think-A-lot said...

Didnt you alreay try this one before? Are you running out of material?

Mike is Wright said...

But this time i found a video that shows how the trick was done. So tell me, when you see a magician in the street do think that they are a sky daddy or do you think there is a rational explanation behind it?

johnny said...

Number 1, Mike, the magician in the street is not claiming to be God.

2, you should really go ask a magician if he thinks this is a valid explanation for the Biblical account... i know of two that claim that it is not a valid explanation for the Biblical claim.

3, nobody disputes the human desire to find a natural explanation for any miracle. (i use the term 'natural' as opposed to your use of 'rational', since your term is imbibed with bias)
Raised from the dead? Born of a Virgin? Yes, even first century Jews questioned these, and suggested natural answers (including deception)... but that's exactly the strength of the apostle's testimony-- when a few of your buddies start being killed for something that you know is a lie, you go hide and shut your mouth.. you don't start proclaiming more boldly.

So, #1 forces you to deal with the complete Biblical claim. #2 suggests that you investigate YOUR OWN claim. #3 shows that we are aware that these claims are outside the norm.


johnny

Sir-Think-A-Lot said...

So tell me, when you see a magician in the street do think that they are a sky daddy or do you think there is a rational explanation behind it?

Find me a magician who was tourtured to death, then came back to life after 3 days, and I'll answer that question.

Mike is Wright said...

you should really go ask a magician if he thinks this is a valid explanation for the Biblical account...
Penn and teller use this argumentn in there bible bullshit programme

Find me a magician who was tourtured to death, then came back to life after 3 days, and I'll answer that question.
here

Sir-Think-A-Lot said...

A neat trick, but how does that meet the criteria of 'dying and eing brought back to life AFTER THREE DAYS'?

johnny said...

The Penn and Teller video give strawmen assertions and reclaims many arguments that have been refuted time and time again... it packs a lot of garbage in an 11 minute clip--- but hey, they're magicians, practiced in the art of deception. :0


As for your attempt at answering STAL with a David Copperfield illusion, try actually answering STAL's point.. namely, present a magician that claims to have been tortured to death and have been resurrected. Copperfield is claiming an illusion of death.

Also, part of the strength of STAL's argument is the case of actual torture... he's pre-answering a percieved claim, on your part, that "maybe Jesus wasn't quite dead. maybe He was only thought to be dead"



It is interesting that you pick a Copperfield illusion to support your claim. Andre Kole claims to have invented many magic tricks, and claims to have helped Copperfield design some of his super-illusions (like making the Statue of Liberty disappear).
If memory serves, Kole has made the claim that he and Copperfield have discussed the possibility whether Jesus' miracles could be attributed to the illusions that they make their livelyhood from. Again, if memory serves, Kole claims that neither himself nor Copperfield think it likely because of the amount of equipment needed and the amount of the help involved.... Kole and Copperfield were the two that i had in mind in the previous post.
Kole is a (converted Christian), Copperfield (again, if memory serves) is Jewish, so he does not believe that Jesus is the Messiah.

johnny

FiFi said...

"the magician in the street is not claiming to be God."

So if he had - would he be right? Would you take him more seriously for his delusion?

Also, he may not believe in god and therefore wouldn't claim to be something he didn't believe existed.

"you should really go ask a magician if he thinks this is a valid explanation for the Biblical account... i know of two that claim that it is not a valid explanation for the Biblical claim."

Are they christians? Question your source, Johnny, question your source.

And a few points of my own here.

1) Can you be sure, beyond ALL REASONABLE DOUBT that Jesus wasn't just a magician? People were much more gullible in those days - they didn't have science as we do today and so took everything at face value, especially when told with the conviction and seriousness that Christians convey their message. DO THIS OR YOU'LL GO TO HELL!!! Well it'd scare the bejeezus out of me if I didn't know better.

2) As recently as last century, before we had life-support machines (which, by the way, the laws of science allowed scientists to invent and develop), people were thought to be dead when they actually were deeply unconscious. In a coma, if you like. Some were known to have woken up days after they were believed to have died, some woke up in the coffin and (obviously) subsequently died of suffocation (exhumed bodies were found in a terrible state of twisted agony, which led to the legend of vampires). Now, as its known (from the bible, mind) to take 3 days for somebody to die of crucifixion, and Jesus was bought down in only 3 HOURS (by the word of your own bible, mind), is it not entirely reasonable that he didn't in fact die, but was close to death and recovered?

And instead of ascending to heaven, he skipped town to avoid the law?

After all, he's alleged to have visited Cornwall, on our South coast. When did he have time to go there, then go back home, in time for his biblical expoits age 33? He must have gone there after all that debacle over the resurrection, therefore he didn't die (at least not until later in his life, from other means).

I'm looking forward to this one!! :-)

Sir-Think-A-Lot said...

Can you be sure, beyond ALL REASONABLE DOUBT that Jesus wasn't just a magician?

Yes though I'd like to point out that it's possible to have UNreasonable doubts about something. Just ask the Flat Earth Society.

People were much more gullible in those days - they didn't have science as we do today and so took everything at face value, especially when told with the conviction and seriousness that Christians convey their message. DO THIS OR YOU'LL GO TO HELL!!! Well it'd scare the bejeezus out of me if I didn't know better.

Please. Just because they didnt have modern understanding doesnt mena they were any more(or less) gullible than we are today.

As recently as last century, before we had life-support machines (which, by the way, the laws of science allowed scientists to invent and develop), people were thought to be dead when they actually were deeply unconscious. In a coma, if you like. Some were known to have woken up days after they were believed to have died, some woke up in the coffin and (obviously) subsequently died of suffocation

A few things: First, these instances wernt nearly as common as you make them out to be.

Secondly, how in the world, did the Diciples mistake a beaten, bloody, half-starved man for a divine conquerer of death?

(exhumed bodies were found in a terrible state of twisted agony, which led to the legend of vampires).

Actually vampire legends have their own interesting history, but thats probably getting off topic.

Now, as its known (from the bible, mind) to take 3 days for somebody to die of crucifixion, and Jesus was bought down in only 3 HOURS (by the word of your own bible, mind),

Not quite, it COULD take as long as three days for somebody to die by crucifixition, but it usually took much less time. It's not totally unreasonable to think Jesus could have died in as little as three hours. Especially if he'd been flogged severely first.

After all, he's alleged to have visited Cornwall, on our South coast. When did he have time to go there, then go back home, in time for his biblical expoits age 33? He must have gone there after all that debacle over the resurrection, therefore he didn't die (at least not until later in his life, from other means).

Actually I'm extremely skeptical of the idea that Jesus visited Cornwell. But even if he did it's perfectly reasonable that he did so sometime between the time he was 12 and when he was baptized by John.

johnny said...

Hi FiFi.

You quoted me as saying, "the magician in the street is not claiming to be God."

And then you replied, "So if he had - would he be right? Would you take him more seriously for his delusion?"

Where you quote me was point 1, but i had already given answers to these questions on point 3 of the same post.

Also, he may not believe in god and therefore wouldn't claim to be something he didn't believe existed.

Then this would not be relevant to Mike's claim nor the Christian claim.

Are they christians? Question your source, Johnny, question your source.

Again, this was already answered, but in a different post. Kole was a skeptic and is now a believer. Copperfield~~ i think that i remember hearing that he is Jewish.

But this is regardless... if this were a court of law, they would both be considered experts in presenting and inventing illusions.


And a few points of my own here.

1) Can you be sure, beyond ALL REASONABLE DOUBT that Jesus wasn't just a magician?


Yes.

The question i have for you is, are you doubting BEYOND reason?


People were much more gullible in those days - they didn't have science as we do today and so took everything at face value,

Am i supposed to take this claim at face value?

I'm reasonably certain that when Mary claimed she was a virgin, yet pregnant, there was not a lot of belief in her claim.
I'm also reasonably sure that most people did not believe a resurrection happened... and this was among people that believed in God and that He had performed miracles through His prophets.

especially when told with the conviction and seriousness that Christians convey their message. DO THIS OR YOU'LL GO TO HELL!!! Well it'd scare the bejeezus out of me if I didn't know better.

For right now, let's stick to the Gospel claims and Old Testement support.

2) As recently as last century, before we had life-support machines (which, by the way, the laws of science allowed scientists to invent and develop),

Which are only possible because God created the laws of science to be rational and predictable. ;)

people were thought to be dead when they actually were deeply unconscious. In a coma, if you like. Some were known to have woken up days after they were believed to have died, some woke up in the coffin and (obviously) subsequently died of suffocation (exhumed bodies were found in a terrible state of twisted agony, which led to the legend of vampires).

Let's examine your claim from the perspective of the Biblical claim..

Jesus was tortured and crucified. Asphyxia was the reason crucified people died when crucified. When the Romans thought Jesus was dead, they speared Him and blood and water came out.

But let's just consider the possibility that Jesus did not die... He was put in a tomb for a few days, most likely had lost a lot of blood (from the scourging). Big rock rolled in front of the tomb. Guards that would need to be overpowered.... so, either a nearly dead man was able to get up, remove the tombstone without the guards knowing or overpowering the guards
OR..
The Jewish leaders helped Jesus to escape (which, if they did, they would have presented Jesus, dead or alive, at the first claim that He rose from the dead)
OR..
Jesus' friends overpowered the Roman guard, moved the stone, helped Jesus to escape... hid from the authorities for 40 or so days, then became so bold as to say, at risk of their own death, that He is risen... they had been terrified, and now they proclaim His resurrection?... the half-dead man that they helped escape? And like STAL pointed out, they claimed that He conquered death, and that we will too.

Now, as its known (from the bible, mind) to take 3 days for somebody to die of crucifixion, and Jesus was bought down in only 3 HOURS (by the word of your own bible, mind), is it not entirely reasonable that he didn't in fact die, but was close to death and recovered?

Nope, it doesn't fit with the textual claims of Roman executioners, guards, medical knowledge, reason.

And instead of ascending to heaven, he skipped town to avoid the law?

So... Jesus skipped town to avoid the law, but those that helped him stuck around and proclaimed something they knew was a lie??

After all, he's alleged to have visited Cornwall, on our South coast. When did he have time to go there, then go back home, in time for his biblical expoits age 33? He must have gone there after all that debacle over the resurrection, therefore he didn't die (at least not until later in his life, from other means).

First, let's see this claim... it's a new one on me.
Second, if He did escape death on the cross by the skin of His teeth, what kind of claims was He making at Cornwall??

I'm looking forward to this one!! :-)

I hope at some point you understand that i'm not here for the sake of sparring... but, if we have to go this route, so be it.

johnny

FiFi said...

Johnny, I'm not here to sparr either. You must understand where I come from.

I used to be a christian, and a devout one at that. I discovered the truth that there is no god and the bible is fiction. Since then I've had my eyes opened to so many things, important things in this world, that my eyes were closed to as a christian. Religion breeds fear and division, and I hope that in time it will slowly trail off (as it has been since Darwin) and humanity can really start to progress and open its eyes to the many issues that we as a race must face to survive.

I liberated myself from religion (with help from some very dear friends) and I sincerely hope you also find such liberation.

You seem like an intelligent person, so it makes no sense that you've applied yourself to the study of fantasy. Please, look at reality for a while and see how you go.

For example, try genetics. You know how DNA and chromosomes are constructed, don't you? I suppose you'll say god did that too, won't you?

johnny said...

I discovered the truth that there is no god and the bible is fiction.

That's interesting. How were you able to know the difference between truth and non-truth?

http://philofreligion.homestead.com/files/alspaper.htm


Since then I've had my eyes opened to so many things, important things in this world, that my eyes were closed to as a christian.

??


Religion breeds fear and division,

Nazism must have been a religion then. Corporations must be religions then (division between "management and workers".. fear of job security).. etc..

FiFi, often you'll see division and fear based on your own perspective. Division and fear are not exclusive to religion, and if they exist, it does not mean that it is the religion's failing. It could simply be corruption from a few persons.
In other words, the failing of a particular religion does not mean it is the religion itself that failed, but sinful humans. (and this is especially the case of Christianity, and the central tenent that is the need for a Saviour)

and I hope that in time it will slowly trail off (as it has been since Darwin) and humanity can really start to progress and open its eyes to the many issues that we as a race must face to survive.

(said from the assumption that atheism is true... )
So what if it survives??!!
Species have become extinct, why should humanity think it's special?



I liberated myself from religion (with help from some very dear friends) and I sincerely hope you also find such liberation.

You seem like an intelligent person,

thank you.. likewise.

so it makes no sense that you've applied yourself to the study of fantasy. Please, look at reality for a while and see how you go.

lol... fantasy you say?
Reality?... lol

R. Decartes said something to the effect of, "i think, therefore i am".
Maybe he should have said something like, "thought exists, therefore someone exists".


You say God is fantasy. I say natural origins is fantasy.

For example, try genetics. You know how DNA and chromosomes are constructed, don't you?

I need more specifics on what you're asking here... DNA- double helix, yes i'm somewhat familiar, but i'm sure that's not what you're asking.

I suppose you'll say god did that too, won't you?

As a matter of fact, yes i would.
Bet you can't prove otherwise. :p


johnny